Guitar Multiple Effects Solutions – (Part 2.)
by Bob Molton on Thursday, July 29th, 2010 | 25 Comments
Hey Everybody, In this post I’m going to cover some of the areas of concern that can rob your signal and tone from your live amp sound. Some of these things can make an extreme difference, and it’s worth knowing what the differences are and how you can take control over them in your set-up.
Please comment after you’ve watched the video.
Thank You, Robert
Hey Everybody –
Thanks for your support!
Go ahead and leave your comment here.
More later,
Robert
that,s great Bob, tnx for that info. My problem is about my Roland gr-33 guitar synth, with a gk-2a divided pick-up.
1st is that i can’t used it’s metal sounds or a distortion effects because when i used it.., the sound cuts i mean when you are doin’ some licks some notes are not being recognized or heard not like when im using a metal zone stomp box effects. another thing is that i can’t have more sustain unless i pressed on the hold pedal! hope you can help me with this Bob! Thanks a lot and more power!!! God bless!
A common problem with using multi effect units in your amp’s effect loop definitely is the effect unit sucking your guitar tone out due to the effect unit processing your entire guitar signal, especially the raw “core” sound. Most amplifiers effects loops are “serial” loops and you will be depending on the effect unit to processes and mix the “effects” and your “core” sound. Very few effect units are very good at doing this and IMHO I can still hear the difference in my core tone being in or out of the signal chain even in the effect units that claim to be good at this. Bob mentioned Alesis Quadraverb in your effects loop. Even if these are good at leaving your core tone “unaffected” I bet you could tell the difference. Put it this way, if you have a nice tube amp that you spent a lot of money on, do you really want to let a much cheaper digital unit process even your core sound. The biggest most important thing Bob stresses is your raw, organic, core sound. Again, IMHO anytime you run this core sound through anything it becomes somewhat reduced. Not good. Instead of series loops (like all of the pedals in front of your amp, one into the other, into the next, etc.) parrallel the effect unit in you effect loop instead of serial. Some amp effects loops already have this, most don’t. There is a neat little tool to acomplish this from John Suhr Guitars called a MiniMix. It turns your serial loop into a Parallel loop. You are using a high quality Mixer to mix the “effects” in the amp loop with your Core tone. At that point, all the digital effect unit is doing is giving you the effects and not touching your raw, core tone. Now, THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT- WHEN YOU DO THIS, YOU HAVE TO MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE THAT YOU SET THE EFFECT UNIT TO 100% WET SIGNAL ONLY. Again, Bob mentioned the Quadreverb. You would have to set the Quadraverb on 100% WET, meaning the Quadraverb would only be putting out the effects and no dry, core sound. The MiniMix would be blending the two sounds and that is what it is made to do. It is analog, just like your Holy Grail amps sound. Your core tone is uneffected as the digital effects are perfectly mixed in. Just use the effects signal level to get more or less effects sounds. This is basically a short cut to using super exspensive rack mixers and multiple effects units to get that holy grail tone with cool effects. IMO, too many pedals up front can really suck tone too, but I’m sure Bob will be going over this later. Take your time. Figure out what YOU want to sound like and use all of this information to get there in the SHORTEST WAY POSSIBLE. If you look at EVH and the rig he moves around to get his sound, remember, he has the money to pay others to do all of that for him, do you?
I use the Pro Channel – Mic Preamp/Compressor/EQ. It has a very warm sound to it. Everyone says to change out the preamp tubes and put in NOS tubes.
I use this for guitar. I am looking for the sound of Leslie West on his first album. No muddy cords, with that growl of his p90 and harmonic sustain.
Please advise.
God Bless,
Fino
I use a Multi-effects unit, but run it in a dry-wet setup so it doesn’t affect my tone at all. Sounds a lot better too. Just a suggestion….
Thanks,Dan
Hey Bob…
Looks like we kinda run a similar setup. I use a Rocktron Replifex and Eventide Time Factor in my loop and several pedals out front (Wah, Amp-50 boost, Tube Screamer, Phaser and Chorus. I handle processor patches and amp switching with a programmable loop switcher and midi controller. I have found a couple thing that have worked to keep my rig ultra quiet and noise free. I use a VHT Valvulator on the pedal board to convert the guitar signal from HiZ to LoZ and power my pedals. This also makes the pedal board F/X sound much richer and warmer. Also, the VHT unit has a ground lift if needed. I also use a Decimator Pro Rack-G that accepts input from both the the signal coming from the guitar and pedal board out front, and the signal going through the loop. With this setup I can get controlled feedback at any time while not having to deal with unwanted squealing and so forth. Also, my rig is dead quiet between songs. No annoying preamp hiss or other noise, even if I’m playing a guitar with single coil pup’s. Thanks for the info and keep up the good work!
Thanks again Bob for the explanation of ideal set ups. I have the funds to change how Im running my sound, just want to research and buy essential gear. I want to run rack for 1 stomp changing, but I dont know if using a head or power amp and pre amp are the way to go. The sound I always loved was 80′s ada mp1 sound, but now its so outdated Im trying to figure out something new because of technology but it seems that everything is geared towards the death metal sound. I finally have realized that to achieve 1 stomp switching you need a power and pre amp or a head, and a midi foot controller. I have also been told about an audio switcher, man im just entering a world that im interested in but totally lost as well. I dont want to buy any gear not needed, but want to not skimp either. Thanks Bob any ideas?
Great info! I run a tuner,chorus,loop station and delay in that order through the effects loop of my mesa mark iv. I also run a compressor in front of the amp, it seems to sound a little better that way, all powered by a one spot. The only issue I have is when I activate my effects loop, my volume drops slightly. What do you think of running a sonic stomp to adjust the volume through the loop? Thanks for your support!
@ Pete, Well said my friend. Thanks for your solid input of information… I’m sure this will help others who are searching for good solutions. I would like to mention that I’ve spent Many, Many, man hours with the quadraverb, and when you set up a “dry Patch” with everything turned off inside the Quad, including all the notch filters and comb filters etc… and then set a unity gain… It is very difficult to tell when the quad is plugged into the loop or not. The response of the amp is the same, the volume is the same, the tone is the same, the amp functions the same as well. This is the main reason I mentioned the Original Quadrverb to begin with. I really wouldn’t even recommend any other units, because the original quadraverb is the only one I’ve found that really gets the job done right… Without spending “Eventide” cash;-)
NOW, with that being said. The “Rolls Hard Bypass Switching System” (which is cheap) will allow you to plug anything into it including floor pedals and Rack gear and turn them on and off individually via midi controller… This allows the effects loop to be “hard Bypassed” when no effects are on. This will GUARANTEE natural amp sound continuously for your main rhythms.
Hope this sheds more light.
Bob
@ Dave, you have a unique situation… If the Roland GR-33 Synth is a big part of your sound, and you also want to utilize a natural distorted amp sound too, I would look into splitting your signal directly out of the guitar, and use two completely separate amplifiers. This way you can combine these two distinctly different sounds together and have the best of both worlds at your fingertips. hope this helps…
@ Fino, Dude, I can tell you know exactly what you’re looking for, and it’s a great choice of tone as well.
You simply can’t go wrong with the Growl of a P-90, along with rich harmonic sustain.
Quick question?… Where do you run the (Pro Channel) within your signal chain? I’m assuming through the effects loop of your amp.
As for the NOS Pre- amp tubes… If you can find an excellent brand like “Tellefunken” or something of that caliber, then Yes I would say it’s worth it. I wouldn’t just change them out for just any NOS tubes though. You have to choose the tube that will get you closer to your destination… In your case it’s the Leslie West first album tone. I would recommend replacing them with “Tellefunken” if you do.
Hope that helps…God Bless
@ Dan, I definitely agree with you on running it in a “Dry/Wet” scenario. That is my favorite way to set-up my live rig, as well as in the studio. If you don’t mind could you share with us what brand of “Multi-Effects” your using and how you have it split into the wet and dry paths.
At minimum, I like to have three straight front cabinet side by side. The far left and right cabinets are effected, while the middle cabinet is full on Raw Dry Signal.
This works GREAT!
@Quick Rod,
Yes!!! This is exactly the type of set-up that works GREAT for live and recording. You are spot on when it comes to the little things that make all the difference, such as dead silence when not playing and in between chords… The silence is critically important, and maintaining a strong signal throughout the signal path is also critically important. The conversion to (Lo-Z) is a smart choice as well. I’m sure your rig sounds great.
In fact, If you would send a picture OR an Mp3 demonstration, I’ll be happy to post it here for everyone to check out. I know many of us would love to hear and see a sample.
Hope you’ll consider doing this.
Send to: admin(at)bobmolton.com
SUBJECT: Guitar Rig Demo
Thanks, Bob
@Jim
First things first, You’re definitely on the right track bro. I also want to say that just because the ADA MP1 has a history in the 80′s doesn’t mean it can’t be used today. In fact if you set them up without all the deep chorusing and just use a main dry patch with a pinch of EQ they sound great. I would recommend running them into the effects return of a killer sounding tube amp. This way you get the Tube Pre and the Tube Power without needing an additional power amp. Plus I think it just sounds better overall. I used to do this exact set-up into an Old Marshall and it rips. (Paul Gilbert / Vito bratta) era. This a 1 stomp solution that could work for you.
However, your main problem is the (1 Stomp) syndrome, and I have another solution for you as well
You need a “Rolls Hard Bypass” switching unit. They are becoming harder to find these days but are well worth looking for. Keep an eye on Ebay. They’ll show up every couple weeks or so, and are around $150.00.
You can plug anything you want into this switching unit, including all your amp functions. Clean channel amp switching, amp reverb, amp chorus etc…
as well as any and all floor pedals and rack units.
Once you plug everything into the switching unit, then you can assign to an individual patch what you want turned on (in any order or combination).
Example:
Patch 1.) Chorus / Reverb / Delay
Patch 2.) Delay / Reverb
Patch 3.) Amp channel switch clean / Chorus
Patch 4.) DRY
Patch 5.) EQ / Overdrive / Lead Boost
Patch 6.) Stereo Flanger
Patch 7.) Tremelo / Chorus / Reverb
You get the idea… You can assign any effect you want in any combination including all your amp functions.
All of these patches are controlled by a simple midi pedal-board.
This is definitely a (1 stomp) solution that works great all around.
Let me know if this is something you’ll consider doing.
Talk soon,
Bob
@ Dennis, You shouldn’t have to run a Sonic Stomp to balance out the volume unless you are doing some kind of line level mismatching.
Are all these units Rack Units? Or are they floor pedals?
If they are floor pedals you’ll need to balance out the signals as not to mismatch the levels. You’ll lose tone and power if you don’t.
Otherwise if they are Rack units you’l want o adjust the inputs and output on the units so you get a “Unity Gain”. This means your entire signal chain is equal to the effects loop being bypassed or on. you shouldn’t hear any drop in volume or boost in volume.
I always test by unplugging the loop cables and quickly inserting them back to analyze the difference in signal. You should be able to balance everything out and solve this drop out problem.
Let me know if this helps… More soon,
Bob
I solved my volume problem by changing my effect pedals around. I pulled the tuner pedal out of the loop and ran it off the second output of my delay like you said in your ultimate tone guide. Also I put my mxr dynacomp in the loop where it acually sounds good. The tuner was definatly sucking tone. Thanks for all the info!
Hi rob great subject im using a boss GT10 i just put it straught into the front of two amps i do not use the pre amps and speaker sims this sounds good im thinking of putting some more effects in the GT10 loop would this effect the sound at all.thanks chris.
Jim ADA MP-1 preamp. Good choice if you like classic rock tones. Advice: Get one off ebay and send it to Voodoo Amps in New York to get Modded. It is the best way to get the classic sounds out of a fairly inexpensive tube preamp that is easy to program. Check them out on their website. I run one through a Rane SM82 Rack line mixer (used for $150)and mix in any rack effect unit you like in the mixer’s own loop (which will be in parallel, just like any mixer)Don’t forget to run the effect unit on 100% wet. That’s Very important. Take the output from the mixer and run it into your power amp and to the speakers. IMO, it is about the best, shortest way to get all of the sounds you want in the smallest, cleanest package. You can use whatever pedals you want in front of the preamp that you like. I just use a Vibe (for that Trower sound) and the EVH phase 90 (for that EVH special effect). Anything else is in whatever good multi effect unit that you might run through the Rane (single rack space SM82) Line mixer’s loop. Email me if you want any more details. This is fun.
How does the TC electronics G-force compare to the Quadraverb?
I’ll try it! More power!!!
Thanks!!!
Hi all, this is the way my rig is setup and wired!
Guitar (ibanez RG350) > stomp box (boss DS-1) > multi effect (Vox Tonelab SE [all patch has a clean amp modulation and has a built-in noise reducer" -no cabs, mic's,ect] volume pedal, compresser or OD tube, clessic chorus, stereo delay-tap tempo, hall reverb) > AMP (laney HCM60R combo “also running it clean same EQ as the amp mod”) > Speaker (celestion G12T).
i’m using a cheap combo 60w becouse most of the time its mic’ed up to a powed mixing desk and so are the other band members.
hope this helps….
@Scott,
Great question…
The G force is real good unit, but I’m still a big fan of the Quad because of the transparency.
Nothing wrong with the G-force though.
Hi all, this is the way my rig is setup and wired! Guitar (ibanez RG350) > stomp box (boss DS-1) > multi effect (Vox Tonelab SE [all patch has a clean amp modulation and has a built-in noise reducer" -no cabs, mic's,ect] volume pedal, compresser or OD tube, clessic chorus, stereo delay-tap tempo, hall reverb) > AMP (laney HCM60R combo “also running it clean same EQ as the amp mod”) > Speaker (celestion G12T). i’m using a cheap combo 60w becouse most of the time its mic’ed up to a powed mixing desk and so are the other band members. hope this helps….
Hi…
Just bought a Marshall JVM410 head.. and i want to incorporate the Boss Gt-10 as my main effects, without disturbing the true distortion sound of the Marshall.. How do I hook this up and keep the integrity of the marshall sound and use the gt-10 to the best of its ability….
hi robert just watched your video, as you say every one seems to aproach from a different angle, some like tube some like digital, some can get awesome sound, others sound not so good? i wish there was a bit of kit you could buy that did what they say it does? alas i am still searching, as are many others, tone ? the holy grail? on we go my brothers? all the best, thanks bw tony.